[Lynk Former]

I think the title of the thread is pretty much all I need...

From what I've observed, I find that most anime fans would prefer it if there was no US anime industry at all... at least not in the way it is now.

The bottom line is that people want anime released in their country but they don't care about the English dub at all. So, the solution I can see is to release anime with no dub. However, then the next problem are the subtitles... they're never going to be perfect... so then of course people prefer fan subs.

So it kind of brings us to the point where the view is that the industry in the US is redundant for anime fans themselves. Of course the people who don't consider themselves to be the cliché anime otaku love the anime industry because they can watch them on TV and such, but this isn't about them

I think maybe the solution (if people really don't want English dubs) is to get US companies to work directly with Japanese companies on their video releases so that they're able to produce more accurate subtitles... (of course for the most part they already did that) and simply act as distribution companies and treat animes as every other kind of foreign media.

Of course, I am completely aware that there still are a lot of people who wouldn't want this... we know this because Ghost in the Shell 2 Innocence was released with subtitles and no English dub but an English dub was commissioned for the UK/Australia release by Madman and whatever that company in the UK is XD

I dunno, what do you guys think? It seems the anime industry outside of Japan is more for those who are stupid enough to spend money on something they can get for free (for example: me) and for people who aren't really the traditional anime otaku.

[Chimasterwang]

I dont think its stupid to spend money on something you can get for free maybe XP
Collecting and having a material form of something can be nice right? XD
Also DVD extras =P

This thing isnt about me though right? XP

[Lynk Former]

I guess it is about material possession of something, sure. I mean just look at darky, he has no interest in Fullmetal Alchemist but he bought the tin cases for it... he doesn't even have the entire collection, just the first discs that came with the 3 tins.

And this is about getting a discussion going in this place... unless you prefer a dead forum.

[Chimasterwang]

Necrophilia eh? XP
Wait did i actually have some alright input? XD

[Lynk Former]

You HAD alright input... now we're just going back to the spammy crap which is killing this place.

[Stormfalcon]

Well, since I am a fan of English dubs, I would be really bummed if the US anime industry died. So, to answer this thread's question, I would say no.

What do the rest of you guys think?

[Analog]

Seeing as how I was an anime fan before there really was a US industry, I can say that I certainly like it better with it being in place. Its not perfect by any means but having money go into anime allows for more and hopefully better quality anime to be produced.

And actually now is probably a good time to review this because we could be (maybe) on the verge of another upswing in the US anime industry. If the live action US movies currently being produced turn out any good at all, that'll only spur more involvement from more big spenders. This may or may not be a good thing. But more money put in the right places could make anime more widespread and available than it currently already is... which is honestly hard to imagine but it is one possibility.

[Scar da Kookee]

Of course, I am completely aware that there still are a lot of people who wouldn't want this... we know this because Ghost in the Shell 2 Innocence was released with subtitles and no English dub but an English dub was commissioned for the UK/Australia release by Madman and whatever that company in the UK is XD

Oh, so that's why it was so easy to find a copy of that in Portsmouth England



but seriously
Why halt the US production? I'm the type of fan whom LIKES TO WATCH AND ENJOY UNDERSTANDING the anime and not HAVE TO READ MY ANIME AND NOT UNDERSTAND the anime.
I dont know Japaneese, and i think it's redundant to HAVE to need to learn it. If I want to learn it, i would've by now. But then I'd just be one of those sterotypical fat friggen otaku bastard know-it-alls, which I do hate.
If i want to read the anime IE the subtitles. I'd pick up the friggen manga. Then of course reserving the issue for another thread: I'd read the manga thats in english, maybe or maybe not mirrored. I dont care about it that way, jsut as long as i can read it.

[Lynk Former]

@ Analog: That brings up another good point. A LOT of money from anime sales outside of Japan go back to the Japanese companies. Not to mention the fact that Japanese companies own large parts of the US anime companies.

In fact, in recent years there have been more collaborations between Japan and the US and animes made with the international audience in mind. But then not all anime is made with the international audience in mind at all, so judging from how people react to the English version of those series, would they prefer it if they got the anime earlier with just the Japanese audio and English subtitles? I think I can safely say that that really is how most anime fans really do feel since for the most part, no matter what you do, you'll never satisfy them with an English dub.

I think a good example I could use for what I'm thinking of is Haruhi... even if the dub is decent, which it's not. Most people wouldn't want it in the first place, they'd just want be able to own a copy of it in the form that they're used to which is Japanese + English subtitles... assuming that they'd buy it in the first place.

Oh, so that's why it was so easy to find a copy of that in Portsmouth England

What?

[Tacx]

I simply prefer subs than dubs.
Hmmm it's just that i dont feel the dub rigth.
and i live far from u.s. so this would not affect me much.

[Moelman]

No, I think it should stay. Along with the dvds we'd lose getting anime on tv also if they got rid of the US industry. I also kind of agree about the material possession part, I like to have something to show for it. Like with CDs even if you can buy them online I prefer to have the cases, same with DVDs. Also even though I usually like the sub better the dub is nice because it gives you something else to watch. The only thing I think could be improved like you said working with the Japanese companies, if we got the DVD releases as soon as they did I think there would be a lot less downloading and a lot more purchasing.

[Lynk Former]

Actually there is a reason why there is a large gap between release dates and it's not just because it takes time to create an English dub for these animes... it's part of their contracts to release them later.

As for the downloading issue, I don't think there would be a lot less downloading to be honest. Anime is a very progressive thing in that a lot of people embrace downloading it and don't see anything wrong with doing things that way at all. In recent years I've noticed several companies trying to look into ways as to how they can get into digital distribution which will allow them to make money but also attracting this large crowd of people who don't really want to spend all of their money on anime.

Think of it as videogame magazines VS videogame websites... printed magazines are dying. They won't die out completely, but print magazines are always trying to find new ways to 1UP what you can get online in some way, but ultimately, the Internet changed the playing field for the videogame magazine industry to a point where a lot of them have died out and only a few remain.

This is kind of how I see the anime industry, it's not something I like personally, but it seems to me that it's the natural evolution of things for it to be this way. US companies are trying to make the most of what they have, but they know they have a lot to compete with.

I know I seem a little grim about this, but Geneon USA dying has made me that way.

[Chimasterwang]

I think dubs might also be nice sometimes because you can relax and not have to read all those subs fast enough before they change XP

[wbd]

I've done some thinking about this subject myself, but most of it is inflexible and dogmatic. Oh well, it's fun to rant online. Then someone can come along and get angry, because as XKCD put it, "Someone is WRONG on the INTERNET".

I think that with all the hard work put in, the US anime industry deserves to succeed. Unfortunately, as a mister William Munny put it, "deserve’s got nothing to do with it". The real key is to make sure you're selling to a customer base that is going to buy what you're selling.

My solution is for the Japanese producers to keep targetting the Japanese market- hey, it makes them money. So, lolimoe until the next big craze (I dunno, maybe it'll be maid robots or something. Lolimoe maid robots).

And for the North American licensors- license stuff that will sell in North America, even if that means going to the back catalogue of the Japanese producers and picking something ancient from 1991 or the mists of time. Ignore the downloads- just because "Magical Lyrical Angelic Kindergarten Panty FLASH! Extreme" episode 12 got 4,000,000 downloads off of NinjaBay's trackers last week does not mean that it will sell more than 2000 copies. License stuff that will sell to people willing to buy.

Here's a great article written by a member of Stardock Entertainment, a successful company in the videogame business that truly gets it. I hope that there are similar companies in the anime distribution chain who have a similar level of understanding.

I'm just a nobody when it comes to entertainment and money, but these guys do great business with their games- in fact, Sins of a Solar Empire is the best-selling game of 2008 so far. It's a good idea to listen to them, and see what they have to say:

http://forums.galciv2.com/?aid=303512

A choice quote:

If the target demographic for your game is full of pirates who won't buy your game, then why support them? That's one of the things I have a hard time understanding. It's irrelevant how many people will play your game (if you're in the business of selling games that is). It's only relevant how many people are likely to buy your game.

And another:

...if you want to make profitable PC games, I'd recommend focusing more effort on satisfying the people willing to spend money on your product and less effort on making what others perceive as hot.

Both are points I've brought up about the anime industry, but as this article suggests, apply as equally to the games industry. I can see parallels between the two industries, in terms of the demographics.

Focus on people who will buy, and make/import series that they will buy, rather than focusing on whatever was the last big torrented hit, and you'll make a living. Distro is harder, and someone with more expertise in that market will have to speak to that part.

At any rate, I buy anime, especially older stuff that I enjoy. My last purchase was the first two seasons of Slayers recently released on DVD, and I'm hoping to get the Captain Tylor boxset when I've wrapped up my current backlog.

[Black Howling]

I am also a fan of dubs myself, prefer to watch and hear whats going on instead of having to look at the bottom of the screen to read the subtitles, and since i import alot of my anime if the Amercian industry died off i'd be screwed since the uks ain't much better. So in general i'd like the american industry to be around, i aint like a fan subber who rather download i prefer to buy dvds to support the market so it better stay around >.<

[Lynk Former]

@ Brian: I have to say, I don't find your example to be very good. Your example only deals with a niche market of PC games, not the entire videogame industry. If you take the rest of the videogame industry into account you'll find that it's an extremely different beast to that of the anime industry altogether.

The anime industry is ruled by piracy which is what gave it life, but is also what will ultimately destroy it. Of course I'm talking relative terms here. While an "official" industry is hurting because of this, the "unofficial" industry thrives.

The difference between the foreign anime industry from when it was born and today is that piracy has become an extremely efficient process, you can do it oh so easily nowadays. Not 30 minutes after an episode of the latest anime is aired in Japan, it'll be on the net and distributed all over the world in its raw form. I'm not exaggerating about this either, and I know some of you here know very well that I'm not. Then a day later you'll begin to see the first fan subs of that anime episode and then later you'll see the more quality subs appear.

In the space of a week to a month, you have an anime released on the net and distributed to all kinds of people for free. It's the perfect way to bypass everything that is capitalism. The people who started the US industry are the people who used to do this kind of thing in oldskool terms, back before the Internet was used this way. So, as I said, what created the industry can also destroy it.

The videogame industry on the other hand doesn't work this way. The industry does have piracy issues in some areas, but they also have ways of fighting piracy because they're able to take control of their media a lot more than you can with anime. You should also take into account the fact that the videogame industry at the moment is rivalling Hollywood which the anime industry isn't even coming close to.

As for the specific issues with videogame demographics, they're different from the kinds of issues that anime faces.



For those who don't want to read any of what I typed up there, I'll sum it up.

You can't compare the anime industry with the videogame industry because of this point: The anime industry thrives because of piracy, however the videogame industry thrives despite piracy.

[Scar da Kookee]

I agree to that Lynk

Anyway
wbd: Why should it matter if Anime is targeted/licenced to a particular audience? Seems to be working just fine in that aspect. Look what Air's normally in the states
From DBZ to sailor moon to Pokemon.

I say if someone is interested in it, people will watch it. From there even a few people will grow to meny.

Example: Lynk got me into Azumanga Diaoh.
I bought a box set of that and shown it to my various Navy peeps. And now even thou they may not have actually seen the anime in a long while I can still make suttle Osaka jokes and I can get em to laugh hysterically.

[wbd]

I think the demographics are relatively similar, especially when we consider PC games. Look at the piracy to purchase ratio of Crysis or some of the other newer PC games. They seem to face the same problem. So therefore, I feel my example is very much illustrative of the issues involved, and the solutions to them. Let me explain below:

First, a brief digression- PC games are only niche now, they weren't before, and I think viewing them in context is helpful in understanding the anime market. So therefore, I am not comparing the videogame market in totality, I am comparing the PC games market.

PC games had piracy right from the start- someone carrying a case of floppies over to a friends house to copy the latest games onto, and then copy them to someone else, to someone else, etc... the scene was rampant on the C64. Many of the star programmers today got started there.

I do not see this huge difference between PC Games and anime- they are both easily pirated, they both target a similar age demographic, they both are experiencing really severe difficulties with piracy (have a look at what Epic Games have been saying lately with respect to their difficulties) and they both are affected by the new digital distribution channels.

You make an important point, "Not 30 minutes after an episode of the latest anime is aired in Japan, it'll be on the net and distributed all over the world in its raw form.", which is very true, but does not obviate my key point- people who license and produce product for people who want to buy, not pirate, are people who prosper.

This returns me to the article I posted- why bother licensing series that will be pirated, while at the same time no-one buys them? If a series gets pirated but still makes enough sales to be profitable, then there's no problem. This is what Stardock has pointed out- selling to a niche audience that buys things versus making games for a bigger audience that doesn't buy is not really selling to a niche.

Just as Stardock found an audience to sell PC games to, anime companies can and have found audiences to sell anime to. They just need to find those people. Sins of a Solar Empire is the top-selling PC game of 2008 (so far)- pretty good for a niche little title! The so-called "big name" titles didn't fare nearly as well.

It's the same for anime. Forget what-ever is new and hot on the torrents, and focus on the series that people with money who are willing to spend it will buy. Even if some piracy occurs, it'll still be alright, if enough people purchase.

If this is followed, it means a lot of shows won't be licensed here, but that's alright- fans can get them via fansubs.

I just think that the fans of series like Lucky Star and Haruhi and whatever is new and hot right now aren't the best target market. They've already got the fansubs and are moving on to the next big thing. The best target market for people who want to make money are the fans who aren't jumping from series to series, and are willing to spend cash.

I spent cash on the BGC DVD boxset, on the artbooks, and on the figures released. I spent cash on the DVD boxsets of Slayers seasons 1 and 2. There, I'm a fan to target. There are others like me, and while we're not as numerous or as flashy as the bigger numbers on the torrent sites, we buy stuff.

Edit- Scar, market targeting is a key item in all goods and services.

I'm not sure if I am understanding you correctly, but here goes:
We refer to the core market- for example, 70% of all soap is purchased by the core household market (moms). 95% of all bourbon is purchased by the core market, with 5% purchased by occasional or non-core buyers.

When a company tries to sell something, it thinks about who would likely buy it. For example, if I made a game about tricking out Honda Civics and racing them, I would target a market that would want to buy that sort of game. That means that I wouldn't run ads for "Honda Racer" in Better Homes and Gardens, because the demographic that wants that sort of game wouldn't read that magazine.

Anime is already targetted to a particular audience. Let's take a few examples, from the broad to the narrow.

Fist of the North Star:
People who will watch animation
People who will watch anime
People who like watching fighting
People who like that art style

So, we've got a progression- our primary, core market for Fist of the North Star watches anime-styled animation fighting and don't mind the art style of FOTNS.

Moetan
People who will watch animation
People who will watch anime
People who like Moe
People who like the Moetan art style

People who like FOTNS may like Moetan, and same with people who like fighting, but they are probably not in our core market. The same applies vice-versa. Maybe those moe fans don't want to see people punching each other and causing explosions. Or maybe they don't like the old art/animation style of FOTNS.

So, that's why you have target markets. Advertising FOTNS to Moetan fans may get you extra sales, but it might be better to spend those limited funds on advertising to a group more likely to buy FOTNS- maybe anime fans who like UFC or something like that.

So, that's why it's important to figure out who is most likely to watch a series- you have limited funds to promote and advertise. In a perfect world, you'd tell everyone face to face about your new show, but that would have an astronomical cost.

The problem is that the current system isn't working, as the targeted market doesn't actually buy the product, and prefers to download it.

I don't presume to speak with authority on this subject, but I do have a Bachelor of Commerce, and that allows me to have at least some insight into business functionings, especially those related to management and marketing.

[Lynk Former]

@ Brian: I know you were talking about PC gaming specifically. What I was trying to say is that you should've made it clear that that is what you were talking about specifically instead of saying you were comparing the videogame industry to the anime industry.

And you do have a point, conditionally, if you only acknowledge the existence of PC gaming by itself and ignore everything else about the videogame industry.

The reason it's important to count the rest of the videogame industry is because it has passed this hurdle and has created solutions to the problems the anime industry is facing. PC Gaming is only a chapter in a much larger story of an industry which has evolved and thrived and grown to huge proportions which is not seeing any sign of stopping or slowing down.

PC gaming is no longer an industry in itself, it has evolved and is another platform in what is a larger industry. It has its own strengths and weaknesses just like how the 360, PS3 and Wii have their own strengths and weaknesses and how handhelds like the DS and PSP factor into it too.

An example of what I mean is the new version of Bully that has been released in the US. It's sold very well on the 360 but horribly on Wii. Developers have the flexibility to choose what platform they want to develop for based on their strengths. A lot of PC developers have moved onto consoles because of this, even Epic Games is focusing on consoles more nowadays.

PC gaming is seeing a different kind of success right now than it did in the past, but while it IS overshadowed by console games... PC gaming is still a lot more successful than it was in the past.

On the other hand, the anime industry doesn't have this level of flexibility to fall back on. I know what you're suggesting, and you're right that the anime industry, in order to survive, needs to slow down and re-evaluate itself. Which is why Geneon USA no longer exists as well a lot of other smaller US anime companies. The industry is getting smaller, more concentrated and more specialised at the moment.

[wbd]

It seems to me that despite my earlier lack of clarity in my statements re games, we pretty much agree on a lot of this.

I think that the sort of contraction we could see in the anime industry in North America could end up making it look like the mid-nineties anime industry, though larger. By this, I mean we'll still have the big-name shows like Bleach and Naruto (and whatever replaces them), and the niche shows that western distributors can sell. We'll also have that big gap in the middle between those two of shows that can't sell to the networks or the fans. That's where fansubs will come in again.

The one big difference I can see is the Japanese production houses getting involved in direct distribution to the fans. Gonzo is apparently in negotiations with a well-known fansub distro site to do just this:

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/200...video-site

It's a weird time right now, so things need to shake out a bit so that we can see what'll happen.

[Lynk Former]

Actually, Japanese and US companies are looking into digitally distributing anime online through different methods.

[Scar da Kookee]

What about other methods in attempting to 'pull back' the means of legaly owning such merchandise?
like for instance, making every copy serialized. unique.
When Command and Conquer 3: Tiberium Wars came out, I just didn't want a normal copy. I heard that there was a Kane Edition, that not only had a few bonuses, but also it was a serialized copy.

Mine's like '23-something thousand' out of 100,000

So what I'm saying here is, is that not only did I want it becuase it was something that I really really wanted, but I wanted something special about it, I wanted to say 'it is my copy'.

What about a demographic in let's say owning a special edition of Neon Genisis, Evangelion that is serialized?
Akira?
Gundam Wing?
Fist of the North Star?
Bleach?
Cowboy Bebop?
Naruto?
etc
etc
etc

shit, I got seasons 1-3 of the new digitaly redone 5.1 surround sound DragonBall Z.
I'd love to have serializations on those, I can say 'I bought that. I own it. It's unique. And I cant wait til the next volume is out.'

[wbd]

Lynk,

What's interesting about this latest announcement is how it short-circuits the usual distro- via a North American company, and just goes straight to a previously-questionable source. On the other hand, Crunchyroll just got 4.5 mill in VC funding, so that must play a role in the choice.

Scar,

Serialized copies could work, if that's the sort of thing that helps with the customers. Some customers will really want that, some not so much. Another thing that helps are extras- things you can't get unless you buy the boxsets, like art books or T-shirts or something like that. Again, some fans will want that, some not so much. Anime companies would be well-advised to pay a few bucks to a research firm to get some clearer answers on what to include or avoid to maximize profits.

[Scar da Kookee]

I just looked at an article (im going to try and look it up) where Nine inch Nails, whom recently didnt reup their contract with their record label, allowed some half of their new album to be absolutely free on the internet
however one can purchase the rest of the album in a protected digital format for like $5.
double disc set for like $15
then various special editions for even higher price

the vary limited version that costs $300 that feature's trent reznor's audigraphed, which had about 2500 units. completely sold out.

[Lynk Former]

Yeah, Radiohead did the same thing with their last album, "In Rainbows". People could buy it online for whatever price they felt it was worth. If anyone wants the details, they sould wiki it... XD

[spinkle]

re: radiohead unfortunately, the downloadable version was compressed at a near-unlistenable 160kbps so many of those who paid for the download (myself included--I love the band and prefer the idea of supporting them directly rather than by proxy) were also forced to shell out more money for a physical CD copy in order to get a quality copy. However, the "quality copy" came, as most Radiohead albums did/do, in an interesting package featuring stickers, bonus booklets, etc., that improve the experience if only by offsetting the cost of physical delivery of the medium. I paid more for my physical copy than for the download...by about $2USD...and if I had known what I'd get by paying for the download I would have just waited.

re: the anime industry, I would like to see companies contract out translation work to fansub groups, who obviously put in a great deal of time and effort to bring something to the general public that they obviously love or care about a great deal...so much so that the final product is often superior to the later "official" releases, leading to the question of why people would pay for an inferior product.

Of course, LE sets are often used to offset this discrepancy and attract buyers who have already seen the series in question but are on-the-fence about purchasing an "official" release due to questionable quality...the perfect example being the Suzumiya Haruhi sets, where the fansubs are higher resolution and have better subtitles (more readable, anyway; i can't speak to their accuracy, not knowing Japanese).

This also raises the point of international support for a series; every set sold outside of Japan is another vote for the series to continue. The fans get to have their say through the purchase of an official product...so doesn't that mean the onus is on the domestic companies to produce official products of such quality that there is a real, justifiable reason beyond obligation to make the purchase and support the show?

I am of the mindset that there should be a trial period for all media...listening to/watching it once or a few times should be absolutely free (a la fansubs) and then those who enjoy the media sufficiently should be the ones paying for the product. In a parallel with the RIAA, however, I would prefer to paying my money directly to the creators of the work (see Radiohead, above) rather than a distributor or licensee. (I sure wish Noizi Ito saw more of my Haruhi money than Bandai did, but I suppose it can't be helped...yet)

sorry if this was a rambling post, it's still early in the dark regions of my brain.

[Lynk Former]

@ spinkle: Oh, oh, oh, that is HIGHLY speculative on the quality of fansubs compared to official subs.

The reason people find official subs to be inferior is because the people who make them treat them like every other foreign media which needs to be subbed. With that in mind they translate everything into English terms while fansubs pick and choose what they want to translate and what they want to keep in its own Japanese context.

In addition to that, official subs actually get official source material and directives directly from the people who actually made the anime. It IS part of the contract after all to get that kind of material.

And don't make it sound as if fansubs are golden pieces of work where the people who translate them are gods of translating because they aren't. I've seen A LOT of errors in fansubs, not just to do with names but to do with contextual information as well. And yes, I know the quality of fansubs does vary between groups, but let's just get FACTS out there okay? But it's funny how people are willing to forgive THOSE mistakes for something that's completely free from something which they'll have to pay for.

And yeah, I've seen those individual factsheets which some fansub groups release to explain their translations. Some official sources release those kinds of factsheets as well but not all the time... and do you know what I've noticed? Wow, surprise, surprise, it sounds as if THEY put just as much effort into trying to get the right context in the translations as the fansub groups do. How about that. Shocking.

Quality of subs vary way too much to make a clear judgement and you might also want to take into account the fact that you can find 10 different versions of the same anime both official and unofficial and they'll all have 10 different ways of saying the exact same thing in their subs, some being more accurate than others.

I would also like to point out that it's not as if folks who work for anime companies don't have a passion for anime. In fact, if you actually look into these kinds of things, you'd realise that most of the people who do work in the industry, do so because they love anime and are excited about it.


From my view of why people prefer fansubs isn't based on quality, it's based on the fact that they online anime community feels as if THEY have control over the anime themselves rather than.. and I've heard this so many times... "some faceless American corporation"...

[Scar da Kookee]

Lynk, those people can suck my nuts.

IF ONLY our opinions and ideas were implemented,...

I wish I could say that a better idea is to take the product, 'offically' release such product in a low quality series. Make one series with the original language audio, then another with an offical english dub. Both with limited content, ie nothing special to give, maybe sub titles included (maybe). low quality audio. maybe mono or limited stereo

Solves:
1) low quality saves money on web servers for reduced size.
2) cribs the normal trend for people to ransack and bootleg their own fansub, even by a little becuase it's an offical copy.

problems:
1) money is spent on bandwidth and hosting
2) doesnt stop the bootleg fansub trend altogether

NEXT make promise that if one purchases the actual anime, they get all the features one can normally get from buying.

Solves:
1) No shit about the DVD's they already give it out, but if anyone doesnt relise that DVD's typically carry both the English and Japaneese audio cuts, and the surround sound (for those who love it)
2) The realization for legitimised work. of course the companies are going to have to emphisise this point, because those animators, the voice actors (in any language that gets recorded), the producers, etc etc. dont work for free And alot of people seem to forget about that

People seem to forget that in order to make those music albums, anime, tv shows. it's not cheap. sry to sound pro-riaa on the subject but honestly it's true. I mean I'm I not going to say that I dont have my own music? my own movies and anime downloaded?

Yeah I do have em.
but does that mean I dont have well over a thousand dollars worth of anime in a locker down in berthing? if not 2 or 3?
And at least 500-600 dollars worth of movies in a binder also next to the anime one?
software?
Music?

list goes on.

Lynk I damn well know that you've got at least 8 or 9 thousand USD on a shelf, i've seen pictures, it's happened!!

[b]Back[/i] to my rant:
After you release the [i]legit/i] product. do more for that.
shit, I wonder how meny versions of cowboy bebop you can get now-a-days.
there is a box set on there that costs at least 300usd on amazon. I go 'wtf'
but still if thats what someone wants. sell it.

again, i use the term 'product' cus I dont generically mean 'anime', just stuff in general that the industry produces. But yet again, why push for it all, i'm not the one who gets paid the 'big bucks'...
*grumble*

[Chimasterwang]

Dont have to pay as much for bandwidth if you use torrents to distribute aswell =P
@Failed BB Code: X3

[Moelman]

The reason people find official subs to be inferior is because the people who make them treat them like every other foreign media which needs to be subbed. With that in mind they translate everything into English terms while fansubs pick and choose what they want to translate and what they want to keep in its own Japanese context.

But whats the point in doing it that way? To stay on the Haruhi example, in the DVD they say "future man" but in the fansub they say time traveler. Which sounds better (and don't say future man lol)?

And don't make it sound as if fansubs are golden pieces of work where the people who translate them are gods of translating because they aren't. I've seen A LOT of errors in fansubs, not just to do with names but to do with contextual information as well. And yes, I know the quality of fansubs does vary between groups, but let's just get FACTS out there okay? But it's funny how people are willing to forgive THOSE mistakes for something that's completely free from something which they'll have to pay for.

Thats because people should be less forgiving of something they pay for than something that is free. The fact that you pay for it means it should be better than the free counterpart.

Quality of subs vary way too much to make a clear judgement and you might also want to take into account the fact that you can find 10 different versions of the same anime both official and unofficial and they'll all have 10 different ways of saying the exact same thing in their subs, some being more accurate than others.

The only thing I don't get here is why do they have to use that ugly yellow with black border text? XD

[Lynk Former]

But whats the point in doing it that way? To stay on the Haruhi example, in the DVD they say "future man" but in the fansub they say time traveler. Which sounds better (and don't say future man lol)?

Because time traveller and future man have two different meanings. It's not a case of which sounds better... for example "nakama" is used heavily in One Piece... it sounds better, but the English equivalent if translated in context to One Piece would be "crew mate"... like I said before, it varies too much in the different animes and their subs. So, really, simply citing One Piece or Haruhi for a blanket example isn't possible.

Thats because people should be less forgiving of something they pay for than something that is free. The fact that you pay for it means it should be better than the free counterpart.

Wait a second... I'm getting mixed messages here... are fansubs superior to official subs because they're better translated or simply because they're FREE?

The only thing I don't get here is why do they have to use that ugly yellow with black border text? XD

Standardisation.

If you'll notice, white text is used when there are signs or notes or effects while yellow is exclusively for spoken words.

[Moelman]

Because time traveller and future man have two different meanings. It's not a case of which sounds better... for example "nakama" is used heavily in One Piece... it sounds better, but the English equivalent if translated in context to One Piece would be "crew mate"... like I said before, it varies too much in the different animes and their subs. So, really, simply citing One Piece or Haruhi for a blanket example isn't possible.

Well with stuff like this they should take it on a case by case basis, and I'd say both of our examples should stick with the fansub way of subbing it.

Wait a second... I'm getting mixed messages here... are fansubs superior to official subs because they're better translated or simply because they're FREE?

I'm not saying they're better because they're free, and it varies whether they're better translated, but all I mean is that the DVDs should be held to higher standards. If consistently held up to those standards maybe people would buy more DVDs.

Standardisation.

If you'll notice, white text is used when there are signs or notes or effects while yellow is exclusively for spoken words.

lol I know just joking.

[Lynk Former]

Well with stuff like this they should take it on a case by case basis, and I'd say both of our examples should stick with the fansub way of subbing it.

But it's not like the suddenly STOP saying "nakama" when the subtitle says "crew mate"... but there is a strange solution to the problem.

I'm not saying they're better because they're free, and it varies whether they're better translated, but all I mean is that the DVDs should be held to higher standards. If consistently held up to those standards maybe people would buy more DVDs.

There is a reason why DVDs have subs a certain way, and that's because they're going by certain standards. However, if there were to be two different English subs on the same DVD, one for anime fan standards and one done the traditional way, then we'd have less people complain.

And that really is the reality of that, it's because anime fans see animes being subbed in a different way then what is used in an official industry.

[darktruth]

I haven't got much time to post my views so I'll be quick. The trend that I'm noticing on the anime industry in Japan is that more and more are being made or adapted from either the game it's based on. E.g. Clannad and Kanon have been adapted from their visual novel games that were created by Japanese otakus.

Perhaps the better question is to look at how the manga industry is doing in America and compare it to the Japanese manga industry since manga is a much more popular format to the Japanese and it's where most animes are created and thrives from.

I heard that ADV had attempted this with ADV Manga but it didn't really take off although I'm not too sure on what the details were, maybe the fellow US forum members may know much more than I do.

The overall feeling I see in the US anime industry is the reverse of the more popular format the consumers prefer in Japan. The US anime industry prefer to focus on the anime DVD's to bring in the manga while in Japan it's mostly the other way around.

[spinkle]

if there were to be two different English subs on the same DVD, one for anime fan standards and one done the traditional way, then we'd have less people complain.

Having multiple translations is only likely to enrich the experience for non-native speakers, IMO. I think it would be a great idea.

to respond to a couple point you made earlier, lynk, i don't really venerate fansubbers, nor do I consider all fansubs to be pristine works of art. i do, however, respect the fact that they work on their projects pro bono without any expectation of (or hope for) compensation for their efforts. DVD companies translate, package and release shows for profit and their own benefit, not the benefit of the "community" or even to cater to the interest of the fanbase...at root, they are interested in money. Many of the people who work for those companies may very well be passionate about anime and its domestic fans, etc., and mad props to them for being able to work with something they genuinely care about...but that passion doesn't guarantee the product that will eventually see release will be of any higher quality than those produced by fansubbers. Bad editing and weak (or, conversely, overly complicated) diction are pitfalls just as large and as deep as mistranslation, and rampant throughout the industry in both anime and manga.

After reading the Rozen Maiden manga I very seriously considered applying to TokyoPop just to get the opportunity to beat their editors around with a monitor 0=)

[Lynk Former]

You don't realise how much royalty money goes back to the Japanese companies do you... people make it sound as if US companies simply TAKE animes away from Japanese companies and then do what they want with them with the Japanese companies not getting anything out of it at all.

But I guess you're right, it's more important to support people who watch the anime rather than supporting the people who make them...

Personally, I prefer to support the people who make the anime in the way I know best... which is by buying my anime even if I can get everything and more from fansubbers.

It is good to be an anime fan though because you don't actually have to pay for anything aside from an internet connection. We get it so easy.

I think I'm starting to feel more and more like a sucker with all the money I've spent...

[Black Howling]

Just wait until they stop making anime altogether then the fansubs who are so adored by the people will have nothing to fan sub because they brought it on themselves

[spinkle]

You don't realise how much royalty money goes back to the Japanese companies do you... people make it sound as if US companies simply TAKE animes away from Japanese companies and then do what they want with them with the Japanese companies not getting anything out of it at all.

I do realize how much royalty money goes back to the Japanese companies. I also realize how little royalty money (comparitively) goes to the creator of the franchise. My point was that the American companies are not translating and releasing anime in the US as a public service.

But I guess you're right, it's more important to support people who watch the anime rather than supporting the people who make them...

I don't disagree that it's important to support the companies and people who make the anime--once the product becomes commercially available domestically. If fansubbers didn't fill the void between broadcast and domestic release, would anime sell nearly as well state-side as they do now, or would there be as many anime fans in the US as there are now? From a consumer standpoint, there is little reason to spend money on a product with which you have no familiarity. I certainly wouldn't blindly buy a movie or CD that I have never seen/listened to. That purchasing pattern is 10 years out of date, especially now that digital delivery is so easy and prevalent.

Personally, I prefer to support the people who make the anime in the way I know best... which is by buying my anime even if I can get everything and more from fansubbers.

Again, I don't disagree. If you like a series or a franchise, by all means, support it by way of purchasing the products they officially release.

It is good to be an anime fan though because you don't actually have to pay for anything aside from an internet connection. We get it so easy.

Obviously, this statement can't be limited just to anime. You don't *have to* pay for pretty much any kind of media at this point. You *should* pay for any of the media that brings you enjoyment if you want its creators to continue producing it, however.

I think I'm starting to feel more and more like a sucker with all the money I've spent...

You'd be a sucker if you bought *every* anime DVD or product that you saw in a store and didn't watch or enjoy them in any way. If you enjoy having a physical collection or feel a sense of satisfaction that you're supporting the artists or creators, then more power to you, keep buying. My preference is to buy a very limited amount of physical media, and only things that I genuinely love and want to possess...I don't have the space to store everything I "kind of" want to have, nor do I necessarily like everything I watch enough to want to own it.

The digital delivery paradigm is the only possible future for the media business model. Blu-Ray may stave that fact off for a few more years as far as video goes, but the future isn't very far off.

My original point was and is this: Domestic anime (and manga) companies should make damn sure that they are making every effort to release the best possible product given the premium prices their products command.

[Lynk Former]

@ spinkle: This is great, I've been given a free pass to steal. All I have to do is give people a logical reason why I need to do it and it's okay.

[Scar da Kookee]

The digital delivery paradigm is the only possible future for the media business model. Blu-Ray may stave that fact off for a few more years as far as video goes, but the future isn't very far off.

Good thing that Anime doesnt require high definition either. Normal DVD qual is okay.