[Lynk Former]

There have been a number of articles recently as well as a few developers who claim that Wii games are NOT real games. So I was wondering... what IS a real videogame? What criteria should be met for a piece of interactive software for it to be classified as a game? Come on, let's hear it... because, apparantly, according to these people... I'm NOT a gamer!

[Maverick]

It doesn't make sense, if you call something "not a real game" you're acknowledging it is a game at some point.

a game is a game, if something is interactive and entertains you, then there's a fat chance you're in front of a game.

is FUD marketing bullshit

[Chimasterwang]

We should be discussing what they mean by "Real"? XP
Link to some of the articles Lynkeh?

[Lynk Former]

http://tech.uk.msn.com/gaming/article.as...id=8115123

http://kezins.com/2008/04/22/the-nintend...-the-road/

These are the only two I could find at the moment but there are a lot more out there...


On one hand you have people who want the industry to be respected and acknowledged just as much as the movie industry is... and on the other you have elitists saying that videogames should only be for a specific group of people and no one outside of the group deserves to play videogames.

...*shakes head*

[kin37ik]

dont worry about them, all they are is just a group of fanboys who havent played the Wii or arent willing to give it a chance.

[Lynk Former]

http://www.joystiq.com/2008/04/24/counti...e-wiicube/

....

[Moelman]

I think the criteria is pretty broad for what constitutes a video game. I mean what about Zork 1 or text-based games like that, or like you mentioned earlier to me Lynk games that don't have a real storyline (Pacman, etc).

[Damatee]

I've already had this discussion with Lynk over msn and my view on the matter stands. everyone who trashtalks the Wii like this is an Idiot

[Tacx]

sheesh.. appreciate what you have. i only got a pc, i never had a gaming console.

[kin37ik]

i think PC's are better anyway, they can play just about any game nowdays, that's how far technology has come over the years

[Lynk Former]

It's just too bad that most bigtime developers prefer to make their games for consoles rather than PCs.

[kin37ik]

but then somebody ends up making an emulator just so others can play it xD

[Chimasterwang]

Its not the same as playing on the console though maybe =P

[kin37ik]

true, but eventually someone else will make a way for the consoles controller to work on the PC, but i wonder how long they spend just to figure out how to get it to work on a PC xD

[Lynk Former]

Bah @ emulators, buy games you cheap bastard. It's people like you who make games overly expensive in Australia *points*

[kin37ik]

hey, i dont emulate current games, i only emulate the old school classics that you cant get anymore, like super nintendo


other than that, i buy my games, i got a fair amount of 360 games

(keeping in mind that there is no xbox 360, PS3 or Nintendo Wii emulator)

[Lynk Former]

Keep in mind that Wii plays Super Nintendo games

And I know, I was just rattling your cage

[Eva]

I'm not surprised. People have a difficult time accepting a video game console that's using a different style of gaming that's different from the video game consoles and style of gaming they're use to. I am not a huge fan of the Wii myself, but doesn't mean it's not a video game console, because it is.

[Lynk Former]

The thing that gets to me isn't that these people are saying that Wii games aren't real games... it's that they're implying that I'm somehow NOT a real gamer because I play Wii games despite playing games on other consoles too...

Of course! *snaps fingers* REAL gamers don't play Wii games! So THAT'S what I've been doing wrong.

[kin37ik]

thats just silly, if you play games on a Wii, then your considered a gamer, in their language, what they consider a gamer is someone who wastes their life in front of the screen all the time

[Lynk Former]

The irony is that I've probably played more games on a wider variety of consoles than the people who agree with the opinion that Wii games aren't real games.

[Tacx]

*clench fist*

dont blame my friends! emulators are such nice friends, they'll make you happy for hours and hours and hours even if you dont have a game consule!

(",) hehehe whew. getting frustated by nit having a game consule. im such a cheap bastard (-_-).

[kin37ik]

*clench fist*

dont blame my friends! emulators are such nice friends, they'll make you happy for hours and hours and hours even if you dont have a game consule!

(",) hehehe whew. getting frustated by nit having a game consule. im such a cheap bastard (-_-).

finally, someone agrees that emulators are good!

[Geass]

This sounds like an argument between Real Robots and Super Robots.


I say this

If a game gets the job done and entertains you *bare bones of it* its a game
If its a supposed real game, it will tell a story, or involve basic story telling elements.

[Lynk Former]

@ Gaess: Does this mean that Pacman is no longer a real game? A game with no story is no less a game than a game with a story.

finally, someone agrees that emulators are good!

Yes, emulators are great, I love the emulators used for Wii Virtual Console cause I get to play all of the classics exactly how they're meant to be played... well mostly, I'd like to have rumble pak and controller pak support and for Nintendo to release the oldskool controllers so you can use them with your Wii... they have with the Super Famicom controller...

[kin37ik]

that would be nice to have the original Super Famicom controllers

[Lynk Former]

I'd like to show you guys something which falls in line with this thread. It comes from a news post from GoNintendo.

Shigeru Miyamoto interview
http://gonintendo.com/?p=41454

A portion of another Wii Fit-heavy interview with the Times Online…

“We want to broaden the definition of what a video game is, to create games for people whether they are five or 95, whether they are men or women.” - Shigeru Miyamoto

Personally, I agree with Shiggy here... but there are a lot of people who don't... The comments to this post shows that it's not just fans of Sony and Microsoft that hate what Nintendo is doing, but Nintendo fans as well...

I've quoted some comments from that page, it's a conversation between myself and someone calling himself JDW. Now, he's entitled to his opinion and I'm not here to slander him. We have opposing views and we're both debating them... what I want to point out in this thread are some of the views people have when it comes to games like Wii Sports, Wii Fit and the idea of an expanded market.

April 27th, 2008 at 10:40 pm

Wow….I’m really getting progressively disenchanted with the direction Miyamto and Nintendo is taking right now.

Instead of making a great game that will appeal to a specific audience who will adore this game, Miyamoto is determined to make new games so generic and lacking in any sort of personality that they cannot fail to appeal to everyone.

It’s so cheap….why try hard to really appeal to demographics when you can make one cheap-ass game for all.

April 27th, 2008 at 11:00 pm

@ JDW:

Shiggy knows that if videogames want to survive, the definition of a videogame has to expand into other fields. There will ALWAYS many developers who will create games for the existing audience, and just to remind you, that audience gets generic, unoriginal and cheap games too.

Imagine how bad movies would be if ALL of them were action movies starring the usual generic action heroes… there has to be something more than that… and I’m sure there are people who would want nothing but the same kind of action movies… but we need romantic comedies, and we need documentaries and exercise videos.

Finally, don’t think Nintendo has stopped making games for a specific demographic… I wouldn’t call Fire Emblem Radiant Dawn a generic game made for all. They’re also not publishing Fatal Frame 4 just so they can add Mii support and making it for the expanded market.

Just because there are games being made which you’re not interested in, it doesn’t mean that videogames are turning into a bad direction… it just means there is a larger variety of games being made which is reaching audiences which aren’t YOU (or me).

April 27th, 2008 at 11:24 pm

@ Lynk

It’s not that these games don’t appeal to me that is annoying……..it is the fact that they are being made as dumbed down as possible so that absolutely everyone can have a small amount of enjoyment from the game.

April 28th, 2008 at 2:26 am

@ JDW:

Which games are being dumbed down and what do you mean exactly by “dumbed down”?

April 28th, 2008 at 3:14 am

My definition of being dumbed down required several levels of thinking.

1 - “dumbed down” as in containing a purely childish narrative and offering very little in the way of an engaging storyline.

2 - “dumbed down” as in appealing t the lowest common denominator of gamers…..i.e everyone. Now Nintendo main interest is purely making games that involve no extreme gameplay elements, nothing too taxing, just watered down gameplay designed to encourage pensioners and cripples to play games.

April 28th, 2008 at 4:12 am

@ JDW:

1 - Wait, wait… “purely childish narrative”?… “Offering very little in the way of engaging storyline”?… You mean like Mario or Pikmin? No, you’re absolutely right, Nintendo needs to make the next BioShock and Mass Effect… obviously they aren’t filling their quota of of riveting narratives and engaging storylines which deal with very adult issues… but we all know Nintendo has released games that deal with some very adult issues and dark themes. If you want me to make a list of past, present and future games, let me know, I’ll be happy to enlighten you.

Just because Nintendo has made games like Nintendogs, Brain Age, Wii Sports and Wii Fit doesn’t mean that’s all that they’re going to do now. They’re expanding their horizons, not turning their back on one to pursue another.

2 - Okay, now I’m gonna give you an example of why you are so misguided about this view you have that Nintendo is no longer making games that have “extreme gameplay elements”…

It’s called Mario Kart Wii. Sure, you can sit there and assume it’s meant for casual folks because the Wii Wheel is packed with it, but this game has a lot of depth which some people aren’t aware of… maybe because they’re too proud to admit it, or maybe because they haven’t played the game long enough to realise it. I’m from Australia, so I’ve had plenty of time with MKWii to figure this all out.

The Wii Wheel does work, it really does. It’s main purpose is to attract people who wouldn’t normally play videogames to pick it up and give it a go… and it IS fun to use, holy crap is it fun. If I got four people in a room and all of them used Wii Wheels instead of traditional control methods for MKWii, we’d have a blast, it’s that good.

But of course, the Wii Wheel does have its limits, it’s a lot more difficult to use… the reason for this isn’t because the game was made badly, oh no, the game was made perfectly well. It’s because there’s a larger field of movement to be made if you want to go from 100% left to 100% right instead of using a control stick. So, okay, if you consider this to be a bad control method, that’s fine… in fact, Nintendo knew that not everyone would buy into the whole Wii Wheel concept, but they put it in there anyway to target an expanded audience.

So, does this mean they abandoned the core gamer in favour of an expanded view? No, because we still have the more traditional control methods, and the game IS challenging. Folks who play this game casually will play 50cc with the Wii Wheel and they’ll have fun… but folks like us… we’ll be on 150cc with the GCN Controller or the Wiimote + Nunchuk method (I like using the Wiimote + Nunchuk personally) and we’ll be carving up that track and powersliding around those corners and getting those killer times that’ll be posted up on the net in the time trial mode.

Nothing has been watered down in Mario Kart Wii, it just gives people MORE options as to how they want to play it and it opens up the game for a wider audience group WITHOUT sacrificing anything. Believe me, if you think MKWii isn’t going to be a challenge just because there are certain elements which are casual friendly… then you’re going to be sadly mistaken. There is so much insanity in this game, it’s not funny… well it is but you get what I mean.

Oh, and your last sentence about “pensioners and cripples” suggest that’s what your entire argument is based on… wow, one single game… but I’m sure you also mean to include Wii Fit, so two games… *thinks” let’s see… Twilight Princess, Fire Emblem Radiant Dawn, Metroid Prime 3 Corruption, Mario Kart Wii, Super Mario Galaxy… no, obviously those games get cancelled out by Wii Sports and Wii Fit, so we can’t count them at all…………………….

One last thing… I don’t care what your issues are, but don’t call people with disabilities, “cripples”… none of them deserve that.

[kin37ik]

obviously the other person doesnt really know what he is talking about, everybody seems to care about the flashy Hi-Def graphics nowdays, and i can tell you, you cant compare flashy graphics to a good story or something fun.

for example, ill use SSBM, you dont see any flashy super Hi-Def graphics in that do you, no, instead it's the gameplay that keeps people entertained, and i think that is where most people fail to see what games really are, games arent just some flashy thing, games are something that is artistic, bring family and friends toghether, tell a great story or to expand upon one, to immerse the player so that they feel like theyre actually there, that is what i think games are about.


(i prefer a game with a good story and that is fun personally)

[Lynk Former]

@ kin: I think you missed the point... JDW and I weren't talking about graphics or anything like that, and this thread isn't about flashy games with HD graphics and tonnes of bloom...

The common thing I see around the net is that there are people who think that a game which doesn't have a story, or at least a recognisable narrative, the kind you see in movies, doesn't deserves to be called a real game. Now this, I don't agree with... since when did games HAVE to have a story?... Then another thing comes to mind... When did games have to be all about realism or even immersion? Certain games require this kind of thing, yes... but to demand that all games be like this is too much.

I like a variety of games. Some have engaging stories, others have no story at all, some are extremely adult in many different ways, and others are completely childish but charming and clever.

When it comes to games with stories, I also like variety in the ways these stories are being told. For example, the story in Fire Emblem Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn are told in a very traditional way, with text and sprites, like a lot of other oldskool RPGs out there.

Then you have games like Metroid Prime, Metroid Prime 2 Echoes and Metroid Prime 3 Corruption. This trilogy has a very interesting way of telling a story which uses information which you scan for in the environment around you as you play the game. It's all raw information, but if you piece it all together yourself, you can figure out what has happened and it creates a story. The way they tell the story is extremely different from a standard narrative because it's making you, the player, figure out what actually happened by giving you pieces of information and having you figure things out for yourself. This, to me, is an extremely unique way of telling the story but is also not how most people want their stories to be told since they expect their videogames to be interactive movies.

Speaking of interactive movies, games like Metal Gear Solid, Halo and Final Fantasy are great examples of the story progressing through the cutscenes and very cinematic moments. These games are extremely popular because they tell there stories in a way that most people are used to already and have already accepted. There's nothing wrong with this kind of story telling, but I'd rather if not all games followed this line of thinking.

Mass Effect did a good job of NOT falling into line with those kinds of games. The whole "choose your own path" thing is great... it's a very old concept, but it's still great... of course no one praises Metroid Prime for its unique storytelling feature because it doesn't fall within their scope of what storytelling is.

That said, I appreciate a game with a good story, but I also appreciate games with no story, or only a basic premise so that we can get down to the game and the gameplay.

[Eva]

The common thing I see around the net is that there are people who think that a game which doesn't have a story, or at least a recognisable narrative, the kind you see in movies, doesn't deserves to be called a real game. Now this, I don't agree with... since when did games HAVE to have a story?... Then another thing comes to mind... When did games have to be all about realism or even immersion? Certain games require this kind of thing, yes... but to demand that all games be like this is too much.

I like a variety of games. Some have engaging stories, others have no story at all, some are extremely adult in many different ways, and others are completely childish but charming and clever.

When it comes to games with stories, I also like variety in the ways these stories are being told. For example, the story in Fire Emblem Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn are told in a very traditional way, with text and sprites, like a lot of other oldskool RPGs out there.

Then you have games like Metroid Prime, Metroid Prime 2 Echoes and Metroid Prime 3 Corruption. This trilogy has a very interesting way of telling a story which uses information which you scan for in the environment around you as you play the game. It's all raw information, but if you piece it all together yourself, you can figure out what has happened and it creates a story. The way they tell the story is extremely different from a standard narrative because it's making you, the player, figure out what actually happened by giving you pieces of information and having you figure things out for yourself. This, to me, is an extremely unique way of telling the story but is also not how most people want their stories to be told since they expect their videogames to be interactive movies.

Speaking of interactive movies, games like Metal Gear Solid, Halo and Final Fantasy are great examples of the story progressing through the cutscenes and very cinematic moments. These games are extremely popular because they tell there stories in a way that most people are used to already and have already accepted. There's nothing wrong with this kind of story telling, but I'd rather if not all games followed this line of thinking.

Mass Effect did a good job of NOT falling into line with those kinds of games. The whole "choose your own path" thing is great... it's a very old concept, but it's still great... of course no one praises Metroid Prime for its unique storytelling feature because it doesn't fall within their scope of what storytelling is.

That said, I appreciate a game with a good story, but I also appreciate games with no story, or only a basic premise so that we can get down to the game and the gameplay.

A plot is needed for a RPG gaming, but even then, games that are fun and without a deep plot, can be fun, like Disgaea. A plot not needed, even for RPG's, for a game to be fun. If a person desires a deep plot badly, then read a book or play a RPG with a deep plot. Calling a game not a game, because it's lacking a plot is just your own preference. The main point I see in your first paragraph is people making these type of statement are solely basing this upon their own preference. As what they prefer is the final statement on a subject. If I don't find a certain video game a "game", then it's not a game, because I feel it's a not a video game. This mainly due to the fact they don't like the game, then using their own reasons why they don't like the game to state why the game terrible, because that person doesn't like the game. I can pick a hand full of games I don't like, it doesn't make them bad or less of game, it merely means I don't like them. People have trouble separating their preference when a discussion regarding these subjects come up. You might consider a game bad, but doesn't make it a bad game.

Just because I found Final Fantasy VII mediocre, doesn't make Final Fantasy VII a mediocre game. For a more recent example, just because you're not into GTA 4 doesn't mean it's over hype game that's terrible. Just means you're not into the game.

You should know what type of game you're buying. Most adventure games, like Mario Galaxy, have a plot, but you don't buy these games for a plot. You mainly buy to have an adventure and have fun. While buying a RPG, like Fire Emblem, you buy for a continuation of the plot along with fun aspect of playing the tactical RPG.

As I stated, Wii style of gaming doesn't appeal to me at all. I'm not going to state the system isn't a game style, because it's different style of gaming doesn't appeal to me. All it means it doesn't appeal to me. People might be angry Nintendo moving in a different direction, but there's not much you can do about that, it's evolving technology world, you can be bitter about it. But, you don't have to play the system. Just because it's moving in a direction you don't like, doesn't mean it's no longer a game system. Still, people will remain bitter and continue to bash the system. Not much will change and will get worse.

[Lynk Former]

@ Eva: Pretty much, there's room for all kinds of games, I just wish people could realise that much. And yes, this is a time where videogames are seeing another jump in its evolutionary cycle. It is a very important time.

Also, I mentioned Fire Emblem and Final Fantasy (at least the modern ones) to point out that they both have very different ways of telling their stories and that it's that kind of diversity we need as well as the diversity of games which have no story on only general premises and plots so you can get right down to the gameplay...

As for Nintendo, they are doing a lot of things which are still very much in line with traditional views of gaming. Twilight Princess is an example of this, but the best example has to be Fire Emblem Radiant Dawn which is even more traditional than what some people are probably used to in this day and age. Then we also have Nintendo publishing Fatal Frame 4 and buying out Monolith Soft and having them develop Disaster: Day of Crisis. Mario Kart Wii is also a very traditionalist game, but with some extra functionality to try to tap into a broader audience.

I've said it before and I wish people could see this. Nintendo isn't abandoning one market to go after another, they're trying to expand their audience and userbase by publishing a wider variety of games.

When it comes right down to it... Nintendo, in terms of the games they're releasing for Wii, is doing pretty well... the real problem is with third parties who either don't have faith in the system or exploit it by creating really cheap games... which isn't entirely a bad thing either considering they did the same thing with the PS2... but my point is, the thing that's dragging Wii down isn't Nintendo, but the lack of interest third party developers have in committing resources to create quality titles for Wii.

...yeah, that does sound unfair, I admit that, considering the fact that Wii has gotten games like No More Heroes and Zack & Wiki which are both brilliant titles... but it really is the third party developers who make or break a system, and while Nintendo does well with its own games... that's their biggest problem... third party developers don't want to have to compete with Nintendo because they feel that they're going to lose every time...

[kin37ik]

@ kin:
The common thing I see around the net is that there are people who think that a game which doesn't have a story, or at least a recognisable narrative, the kind you see in movies, doesn't deserves to be called a real game.

thats what i was trying to say, whenever i say something it always seems to come out wrong.

ohh, and when i meant games with a good story i mean the games that fit under that category, i should have explained that, my bad.

so ill keep my mouth shut now before i make another silly post

[Lynk Former]

That's aright, I had a feeling that's what you meant.

[Chimasterwang]

I read all that XD
I agree with some of the stuff Lynk said maybe
Also Lynk you posted the same giant quote post twice XD

[Lynk Former]

I agree with some of the stuff Lynk said maybe

What did you agree with and what didn't you agree with?

[Chimasterwang]

Ughhhhh D=
Now ill have to go through and look at what you posted again maybe XD
I dont realy disagree with any of it XP

Nintendo isn't abandoning one market to go after another, they're trying to expand their audience and userbase by publishing a wider variety of games.

I dont think games have to have a story, realism, immersion, etc XP
Diversity/variety is good maybe XP

Also i agree with the stuff about third party developers maybe =P

[Lynk Former]

I'm just trying to get you to discuss something in here in a little more detail... it's something this forum lacks quite a lot of.

EDIT: Here's some more... http://insomnia.ac/commentary/non-games_...r_retards/

[Lynk Former]

Moved PC gaming discussion to new thread: http://forums.thecrisiscenter.net/showthread.php?t=1278